The MacOS v. Windows 10 Conundrum

[iiiNelson]

So... I’m in a bit of a conundrum in flirting with the idea of possibly doing a PC build based on the AMD Ryzen Generation 3 processors this fall. Obviously, this will require a return to Windows (which I don’t love in any sense) but am familiar with since I use it at the day job. The obvious thing that would make me kill the idea would be if Apple introduced a modular designed computer (yeah I know it's more of a dream than a reality) without some of the pro features like 4x GPU’s (instead maybe 2x GPU’s Max would be a healthy alternative) or limiting RAM to say 256-512GB (instead of 1.5TB) for half the cost. I’m sure the Mac Pro will be great but I can’t justify the price of it for my needs... I find the iMac and Mac Mini to be just a bit too limiting as it applies to futureproofing without upgrading often. I primarily use software that’s OS agnostic (Capture One and looking to go all in on Davinci Resolve/LumaFusion for iOS for video if I go Windows) so that’s not an issue but generally speaking the software still performs better on MacOS whether it’s a genuine Apple or a Hackintosh (which I don’t have much time/patience to constantly tinker on). I’m trying to keep costs to $4k (or less) if possible. I don’t have any real loyalty towards Intel, AMD, or NVidia personally but AMD seems to be the value leader when it comes to a balance between multi-thread processors at reasonable costs, OpenCL support, and yes gaming should I choose to ever do any. I will say that if the Ryzen 3 processors live up to the hype that they’ll be a real game changers so to speak but Intel having Thunderbolt and QuickSync (for software that takes advantage) is a great thing though there are AMD X570 motherboards that will include TB3 (and rumored to add USB4) this generation.

Is anyone else debating future computer systems? I know in the end the realistic option is going to come to a compromise between hardware or software... not a really easy answer for me right now.

 

[4season]

I'm thinking the hardware should be mostly built around the needs of that video-editing software. This appears to be a good place to start:

https://www.richardlackey.com/davinci-resolve-system-requirements-a-reality-check/

Mac vs Windows: I have no particular opinion, save that with Windows PCs, you have more GPU choices at your disposal, and have more flexibility to cut costs in areas that don't matter so much.

"Future proofing"? Haha, beyond 18 months or so who can predict what the future holds?

 

[MGrayson]

I do no video, so Mac hardware satisfies my needs. My brother-in-law, who now adds video (Resolve) to his photography work, has left Apple for Dell. He's getting equal power from a $7K iMac pro vs. a $5K Dell laptop. (This shows that his video needs aren't THAT extreme.) All the 3D modeling people with whom he shares studio space run PCs for crunching and Mac laptops for personal use.

Of course, one could set up an eGPU box, but not all software supports them.

I went to Windows for three years during the Sculley era (well, it was Diablo that did it) but moved back with Steve Jobs. To my mind, the difference between a work Windows computer and a home one is who does the system maintenance. At work, someone else keeps the system running and up-to-date. I HATED doing that myself on Windows. Not that Apple is flawless - far from it - but systems headaches are trivial by comparison.

Good luck,

Matt

 

[k-hawinkler]

Well Tre, good luck with your plans. In the past I have used both Macs and PCs side by side (and many other systems). I will stick with Macs, if needed use PC functionality in emulation. :facesmack:

 

[iiiNelson]

Well Tre, good luck with your plans. In the past I have used both Macs and PCs side by side (and many other systems). I will stick with Macs, if needed use PC functionality in emulation. :facesmack:

Yeah I hadn’t decided either way and if Apple offered a more afforadable modular option it would be an easier decision. The reality is that an iMac will likely work but nothing can be upgraded besides the RAM any the end user... then you’re dealing with throttling and heat issues. I really don’t want a Mac Mini because I’d be buying another new computer in a few years if I did. Mac Pro is out of the question for now but I’d love one even if it’s more than I need in the immediate future. In any case I’d probably choose AMD GPU because they’re better at OpenCL in general... so the whole lack of NVidia support matters most to gamers IMO.

 

[k-hawinkler]

Tre, I agree.
Apple needs to consider more the needs of more regular folks.
A MacBook Pro with a CalDigit TS3 Plus Thunderbolt 3 Dock might be a better option.
I will have another look at this subject in the fall/winter. :thumbs:

 

[iiiNelson]

Tre, I agree.
Apple needs to consider more the needs of more regular folks.
A MacBook Pro with a CalDigit TS3 Plus Thunderbolt 3 Dock might be a better option.
I will have another look at this subject in the fall/winter. :thumbs:

Yeah that’s true. Part of my thinking is that Intel is having a lot of trouble with getting their new chip designs launched over the last few years. I think it’s time that Apple consider buying from both Intel and AMD... or just go to AMD in their desktops since many applications are already designed to take advantage of multithread performance. Intel is a better option for laptops still IMO.

I guess it still all comes down to if I want hardware flexibility or if I want software optimization. I lean towards the software side but I just want the right hardware options too.

 

[faberryman]

Yeah that’s true. Part of my thinking is that Intel is having a lot of trouble with getting their new chip designs launched over the last few years. I think it’s time that Apple consider buying from both Intel and AMD... or just go to AMD in their desktops since many applications are already designed to take advantage of multithread performance. Intel is a better option for laptops still IMO.

My understanding is that Apple is moving toward bypassing Intel and AMD altogether and using proprietary ARM chips like in its iPhones and iPads for its laptops and desktops.

 

[iiiNelson]

My understanding is that Apple is moving toward bypassing Intel and AMD altogether and using proprietary ARM chips like in its iPhones and iPads for its laptops and desktops.

Yeah I've seen that but I don’t know that they’re powerful enough right now for all desktop applications... and I suspect it’ll take some time for companies to port existing software from x86 to iOS/ARM based processors.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

To my mind, the difference between a work Windows computer and a home one is who does the system maintenance. At work, someone else keeps the system running and up-to-date. I HATED doing that myself on Windows. Not that Apple is flawless - far from it - but systems headaches are trivial by comparison.

Good luck,

Matt

This is my main issue with Windows computers as well. Not only is the maintenance more complicated and time consuming, but there's more of it as well. I've worked in mixed Mac/Windows environments for the last 20+ years, and there's no comparison. With Macs, users mostly manage by themselves, while with Windows PCs, they don't, and if they try, they often end up screwing up further.

Still, I try to stay away from software that only works on Mac, and for video editing, I considered moving from Premiere to Final Cut, but have now downloaded DaVinci Resolve to see if that is something that I can live with. I'm trying to limit my use of Adobe products for cost reasons, but easy it is not.

One budget way of getting to a powerful, expandable Mac is buying the last models of the Mac Pro 5,1 that was manufactured from 2010-2012. OWC offers some pretty sofisticated upgrade kits for it, and sometimes even have used ones for sales where you can have them tailor make it to your own specifications. It must be a 5,1 though. I have the 4,1, and there are limitations.

 

[Godfrey]

... Is anyone else debating future computer systems? I know in the end the realistic option is going to come to a compromise between hardware or software... not a really easy answer for me right now.

Not me.

Between the 2018 iPad Pro 11" (still have my 2015? iPad Pro 12.3" and it's still working fine too) and mid-2012 Mac mini, all my needs are fulfilled. I'm upgrading the Mac mini (also still working fine, btw) to a current model this year (fully stuffed) and expect it will last me the next seven to nine years.

That's about as fast a turnover as I need, and I've not had any reason to upgrade the 2012 Mac mini other than to fully stuff it with RAM (which I should have done when I bought it) and put an SSD in it. Easy.

Every time I've used Windows systems, they've annoyed me too much to be even something I'd consider. If I moved to any other desktop OS, it would be Linux but the complexity of finding decent software and maintaining it on Linux is too much effort for me. Most of what I use on iOS has its designed complement on macOS. Life is simple and easy this way, for me at least.

 

[iiiNelson]

Not me.

Between the 2018 iPad Pro 11" (still have my 2015? iPad Pro 12.3" and it's still working fine too) and mid-2012 Mac mini, all my needs are fulfilled. I'm upgrading the Mac mini (also still working fine, btw) to a current model this year (fully stuffed) and expect it will last me the next seven to nine years.

That's about as fast a turnover as I need, and I've not had any reason to upgrade the 2012 Mac mini other than to fully stuff it with RAM (which I should have done when I bought it) and put an SSD in it. Easy.

Every time I've used Windows systems, they've annoyed me too much to be even something I'd consider. If I moved to any other desktop OS, it would be Linux but the complexity of finding decent software and maintaining it on Linux is too much effort for me. Most of what I use on iOS has its designed complement on macOS. Life is simple and easy this way, for me at least.

I've been exploring Linux options too... I have some limited experience with it from working with it on Sun Supercomputers back in my military days when that was a thing I had to do for some intensive geospatial processes...

Perhaps I'll just wait for now and maybe upgrade to the newest iPad Pro this fall and see what Apple will do. I don't want to go to a Windows machine for personal usage but I will if Apple doesn't come up with a sensibly priced and spec'ed modular desktop solution. Mac Mini won't really work for me personally long term and the iMac design precludes Apple from taking the most advantage of the processors due to the last of proper airflow/cooling.

 

[camping]

Jorgen

Thanks for the info.

"One budget way of getting to a powerful, expandable Mac is buying the last models of the Mac Pro 5,1 that was manufactured from 2010-2012."

This is very interesting and relatively inexpensive for a workhorse machine.

Paul

 

[JaapD]

I’m a Windows-only user (apart from IOS om my iPhone and iPad…) and don’t like Windows at all. However, once the application (PS, C1, etc.) has been started up I don’t notice anything about Windows in the background. Same with MacOS.

As a side note I have zero system maintenance issues over the past 15+ years of Windows use. All updates/upgrades work flawlessly and will be carried out automatically once becoming available, similar as with the iPad updates.

Sooooo, what’s the real point then with MacOs vs. Win once the app has been started up?



Regards,
Jaap.

 

[GrahamWelland]

I’m also os agnostic in the apps. However, the file transfers between Mac and Windows are more problematic as my archives are all Mac.

exFat helps but it’s still an issue. I use a Wacom PC in the field but the rest of post processing at home is all Mac.

NTFS and Mac NTFS drivers make life easier on fixed disks.

 

[DougDolde]

The only times I've owned Windows machines was when I needed to run CAD software that was not ported to Mac. ie Pro/Engineer and way before that Cadkey. Windows is such a mess to configure and update not to mention the lousy interface

 

[iiiNelson]

I’m a Windows-only user (apart from IOS om my iPhone and iPad…) and don’t like Windows at all. However, once the application (PS, C1, etc.) has been started up I don’t notice anything about Windows in the background. Same with MacOS.

As a side note I have zero system maintenance issues over the past 15+ years of Windows use. All updates/upgrades work flawlessly and will be carried out automatically once becoming available, similar as with the iPad updates.

Sooooo, what’s the real point then with MacOs vs. Win once the app has been started up?



Regards,
Jaap.

As I stated in my first post... I'm familiar with Windows (use it at the day job) but prefer not to use it at home. A lot comes to personal preference and I just find that MacOS is more stable for me. I've forced my Mac to upgrade to a higher OS that should give it a bit more life until I make a decision but that decision will likely just lead me to an iPad Pro/ Desktop Mac combo down the line. Also, I use some other MacOS exclusive programs like FCPX... I've looked into the alternatives like Davinci Resolve but those are truly workarounds.

As they say YMMV.

 

[iiiNelson]

I’m also os agnostic in the apps. However, the file transfers between Mac and Windows are more problematic as my archives are all Mac.

exFat helps but it’s still an issue. I use a Wacom PC in the field but the rest of post processing at home is all Mac.

NTFS and Mac NTFS drivers make life easier on fixed disks.

Yeah, I found that to be a huge conundrum for me as I've been MacOSat home for the last 16 years. Switching to PC would probably push me to starting a new catalog for photos from fresh under a Windows file system which I really don't want to do.

 

[BFD]

So... I’m in a bit of a conundrum in flirting with the idea of possibly doing a PC build based on the AMD Ryzen Generation 3 processors this fall. Obviously, this will require a return to Windows (which I don’t love in any sense) but am familiar with since I use it at the day job. The obvious thing that would make me kill the idea would be if Apple introduced a modular designed computer (yeah I know it's more of a dream than a reality) without some of the pro features like 4x GPU’s (instead maybe 2x GPU’s Max would be a healthy alternative) or limiting RAM to say 256-512GB (instead of 1.5TB) for half the cost. I’m sure the Mac Pro will be great but I can’t justify the price of it for my needs... I find the iMac and Mac Mini to be just a bit too limiting as it applies to futureproofing without upgrading often. I primarily use software that’s OS agnostic (Capture One and looking to go all in on Davinci Resolve/LumaFusion for iOS for video if I go Windows) so that’s not an issue but generally speaking the software still performs better on MacOS whether it’s a genuine Apple or a Hackintosh (which I don’t have much time/patience to constantly tinker on). I’m trying to keep costs to $4k (or less) if possible. I don’t have any real loyalty towards Intel, AMD, or NVidia personally but AMD seems to be the value leader when it comes to a balance between multi-thread processors at reasonable costs, OpenCL support, and yes gaming should I choose to ever do any. I will say that if the Ryzen 3 processors live up to the hype that they’ll be a real game changers so to speak but Intel having Thunderbolt and QuickSync (for software that takes advantage) is a great thing though there are AMD X570 motherboards that will include TB3 (and rumored to add USB4) this generation.

Is anyone else debating future computer systems? I know in the end the realistic option is going to come to a compromise between hardware or software... not a really easy answer for me right now.

If anyone is still interested in this topic, I did a recent Windows build that saved me over $10,000 over buying the new Mac Pro. Like someone pointed out above, once you're in Photoshop, it doesn't matter what the OS is—they both look and work the same. And, Windows is not that bad to use—this is coming from someone who has only used Macs for 30 years. Article on my experience here: https://nine-volt.com/blogs/news/building-a-mac-pro-killer-for-a-less-than-one-third-of-the-price

 

[Godfrey]

A Mac mini 2019 six core fully stuffed is more than fast and future-proof enough for me. My Mac mini 2012 is still going strong but a tad slow now, the new one is running rings around it.

Lessee: I paid $1200 for that mini 2012 and it is eight years old, still going. I paid $1800 for the new one, it'll probably last the same. The 2012 machine required virtually no maintenance at all, I expect the same for the new one.

Why should I invest oodles of time and money learning how to build a custom computer and run an OS I have zero knowledge of when what I have does everything I need, will cost me less than $150/year on average, and lets me put all of my time, energy, and money into what I want to do rather than dealing with the equipment to do it?



G