What DMF cameras are you shooting with today?Sure, I can do that test for you, 10K USD for materials + time sound fair? Or budget, 3K and I rent everything as a budget option.
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Phase one body and back suggestion for products/portraits
- Thread starter Allthink_
- Start date
what DMF back are you shooting with?$10K? that's el-cheapo. I can do a deLuxe version, delivered in a custom made box for just $16K. Alternatively, I will accept a brand new Rodie 138mm
TechTalk
Well-known member
The poster is seeking help. He described what he believes would be helpful to him in his process of learning. He isn't demanding anything from anyone; but expressing, as best he's able, what he thinks may be most useful to him should anyone volunteer their time in assisting him in finding the specific comparison he seeks. A great many hours of time and effort are volunteered by individuals in giving advice and making comparisons in forums every day.
If you want to see some real attitude, the photographer who started this thread honestly admitted in another forum: "It's not easy for me to understand how to use tech cameras like Swebo TC-1. Cambo Ultima II, Actus." The expert advice he received in that other forum: "Then I would suggest that you not try."
Now that's some expert attitude! Thankfully, this forum hasn't produced a response like that in this thread. I don't expect that it will.
TechTalk
Well-known member
Some may have inadvertently overlooked the poster's statements "In case you have" and "if you have them" which began his post regarding comparison images. I took what he wrote to mean; if you have made similar comparisons in the past and can share them, these are the specific things I'm most interested in seeing. I personally didn't read it as requesting anyone to go and shoot new comparison images on demand for him, though I suspect he wouldn't object to such generous effort. He has shown gratitude for all the contributions to this thread made to date.Sure, I can do that test for you, 10K USD for materials + time sound fair? Or budget, 3K and I rent everything as a budget option.
I also wouldn't be surprised if someone did generously volunteer to shoot some new comparison images given that it's something which people using different types of equipment generate and post to online discussion forums fairly regularly. It's often beneficial to readers with similar interests passing thru as well as to participants in the discussion. It's one of the positive aspects of forums like this where individuals voluntarily contribute their time, abilities, and knowledge to benefit the larger photo community.
I would suggest that the members of any forum are an unruly and possibly unreliable source of information. The OP asks for examples and comparisons but does not provide any of his own.
If I were trying to make the kind of decision the OP is, I would seek out information from the various manufacturers and possibly their paid toadies (spokespeople) to try to narrow down the options. Then I would attempt to rent said equipment to see how it performs in the situations I intend to use it. If I do not know how to use the equipment, there are demonstrations and workshops sometimes offered that might help. Also, If I did not know how to use the equipment I would be wary of making the kind of investment necessary without some sort of instruction. Unless, of course, these are only toys and lifestyle accessories for a well-funded hobby.
If I were trying to make the kind of decision the OP is, I would seek out information from the various manufacturers and possibly their paid toadies (spokespeople) to try to narrow down the options. Then I would attempt to rent said equipment to see how it performs in the situations I intend to use it. If I do not know how to use the equipment, there are demonstrations and workshops sometimes offered that might help. Also, If I did not know how to use the equipment I would be wary of making the kind of investment necessary without some sort of instruction. Unless, of course, these are only toys and lifestyle accessories for a well-funded hobby.
TechTalk
Well-known member
Sure, in the online world anything can be found — positive and otherwise.
If you're looking for relevant example images, the OP has two website links to his work attached to the bottom of his posts...
product and portraits photographer www.photostudio.co.il
architecture and interior design photography www.maximdupliy.com
All excellent suggestions! That can be easy or difficult to do, depending on where you're located.
In this case, it appears to be a profession and not a well-funded hobby.
buildbot
Well-known member
Iq3 100 achro
IQ2 60
Sinar emotion 22 (on rollei and mamiya afd bodies)
Sinar emotion 75lv (on rollei and mamiya afd bodies)
Sinar evolution 75H
Mamiya Zd
Jenoptik eyelike m22
Edit-
Forgot my gfx 100s
I might be forgetting some. I don’t know why that’s relevant to your question
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TechTalk
Well-known member
Those three well preserved Sinar backs which buildbot has would feel right at home on the back of your p3 Steve!
buildbot
Well-known member
The sinar evolution lives on the p3’s cousin, the sinar repro! Finding the right adapter was a pain.Those three well preserved Sinar backs which buildbot has would feel right at home on the back of your p3 Steve!
I wanted to see if you are a serious photographer.Iq3 100 achro
IQ2 60
Sinar emotion 22 (on rollei and mamiya afd bodies)
Sinar emotion 75lv (on rollei and mamiya afd bodies)
Sinar evolution 75H
Mamiya Zd
Jenoptik eyelike m22
Edit-
Forgot my gfx 100s
I might be forgetting some. I don’t know why that’s relevant to your question
Where I can see your works?
Also, you are the one that laughed at me, saying I can do it for 10k... etc. Not nice at all.
I asked if anyone have such image comparisons vs full frame to see the differences as I can't rent/do demonstrations with such expensive systems in my country. It's either you order it from distributor outside the country and you know what you are buying in advance, no such tests possible, at least with P1 and Hass. Maybe with fuji I can, I will check with them. And of course not with old tech cams, that sell only second hand, only used and no video tutorials on assembling/using such stuff.
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Hello Pieter
" The OP asks for examples and comparisons but does not provide any of his own. "
What examples I have to provide? Can you answer that question? I don't have DMF, what you expect me to provide if I don't have one?
I'm myself asking for examples of comparisons, but other members here made a joke of me, especially Paul Spinnler.
I'm the one that asked for examples to estimate the differences and decide to go or not to go DMF route and if yes, which one as there are many options and creative possibilities with each one, especially tech cam.
If you read my initial post(maybe you didn't), you would know exactly what I shoot (i wrote that) and it by itself narrows down the options.
Where there are demonstrations of how to assemble Sinar P3 or any other tech camera with DB, cables, lenses, lensboards online??? Non one was able to mention that no here and not in other forum. I assure you that not only there are no demonstrations, these cameras barely sell in my county, so I have to order it online, knowing in advance that that's what I need. I wish there were such demonstration like you mention.
I'n interested to to use tech cameras and maybe that's a good option for me, but i have to get visual info of how to use that. I can learn.
There are no workshops and demonstrations on such matter, especially not in my country. I suspect there are no any in US on using tech cameras as well. If you know of that, let me know.
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You was very nice until that comment.
I didn't demand anything from you or any other member, as you say "image service".
I asked something different, if you have one or you did such tests in a past for yourself, when you decided to go MF.
So saying such stuff to someone that seeking helpful info is bad attitude.
If you can't or don't have such images, then ok, I don't DEMAND it like you said. I asked in case you have.
Hard for me to understand if it's a humor or you said it intentionally.
What do you mean by "go make search". If you think there are such comparisons on google, then there aren't. Only owners of such equipment can have such tests, specially expensive DMF system vs. full frame.
What DF camera/lenses are you shooting with today and where I can see your works?
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Thank you for your support
I really felt like people doing a joke from me and laughing at me, not nice.
After doing 2 academic degrees till M.Sc. , one in pretty profitable area, I left all this to pursuit what I really love-photography. Doing it for 11 years and try to earn money doing that, not easy to do that in my country. And, as 11 years ago, as well as now, I'm very enthusiastic of learning new editing techniques, new shooting techniques, new equipment capabilities etc. as I was 11 years ago and eager to learn alwayws new stuff.
For example, one technique of editing architectural photos, using segmented gradual masking, and second - shooting "technique" - shooting architecture on infrared filter that blocks different wavelengths', some from 700nm , others from 800nm which give different results.
I still have to redo my portfolio on products photography, as the stuff on website was done 10 years ago, and I didn't renew that. I have to rent some space, outside home, to do new product portfolio (the renting part is the problematic one as most what I do is rent studio for when I need that or doing arch/interiors doesn't require studio)
buildbot
Well-known member
Tone matters a lot - sure I read the “in case you have”, but copy pasting the same message what, 5 times? asking for a fairly heavy comparison clearly struck my nerve and a fews others here. We don’t work for this forum or for the thread’s poster. I feel like asking for anything from people, for free, needs to be done fairly circumspectly and politely. This felt like neither. You are welcome to help the OP, It think many others here have contributed all we wish too now. At least, I have.
My websites, but I don’t post anything really good online, print only. I’m also not a “serious” photographer, sorry. I think 95% of serious photographers are out there with a nikon z or canon r trying to make any money they can, not fixing and writing new software for ancient sinar backs.
I found your request to be rude. We were offering suggestions, not offering to run advanced comparisons for you across the entire phase one and full frame camera range. Most people don’t have these on hand because it’s a ton of work and only partially relevant.
I’m sorry that sounds very frustrating. This is a field with relatively rare and expensive pieces of kit, testing them is typically not possible all at once. Even in the US, the scope of your requested comparisons would basically require you to sit in Capture Integrations store and go through all the bodies and equipment, I can’t imagine anywhere would let you rent 4 tech cams and 5 digital backs plus a few full frame bodies for comparison.
Most people in this field seem to either know what they want, or slowly work their way through a few systems, buying and selling as needed as they lock down what they like. Buying and selling used is more work than renting but can literally make you money if you are lucky in your sales.
Sounds fun! IR is where I spend most of my time.
IDK why your education is mentioned, but sounds like a fun but stressful career shift to me.
I asked different people same question, not same question for you, because other's doesn't necessarily will see my request to you, hence the copy paste. Copy paste to save time, is there a problem with that? If I have same question to others, hence copy pasting is the way, why to write same thing again?
Why to read same question I asked others?
Others expressed expertise, hence I asked them too, hence I think there is no problem that I ask them same question different people. Some people read only reply to them and not to others.
I wasn't rude in any of my "requests"- especially in the way I asked for it.
If you can't attach those test in case you didn't do them in the past, you could ignore that or say you don't have that, it wasn't a demand as someone said.
Asking for some tests isn't rude in any way. You and other flipped my words in totally different direction.
I did talk politely all the way from the beginning.
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You are asking subjective questions, people will have different opinions and tastes. Only you can be the final arbiter and that takes either hands-on trials or looking at a lot of examples--and most probably not from a forum, rather individual portfolios and manufacturers' websites. There are so many factors that go into a portrait or product shot, from the photographer's eye to lighting and style and the amount of pre- and post-production involved. From looking at your website portfolios, I wonder what is it exactly that you think you will gain from using different equipment? Are you looking to expand the possibilities of what you might be able to do? Plus, there will be a learning curve to get the most of whatever the new and different gear might offer. Remember, most of a photo's quality and appeal comes from the photographer, not the equipment.
TechTalk
Well-known member
You're absolutely right and that's a problem with the kind of short-form written electronic communication we frequently use today — text messages, email, forum chats, social media, etc. They lack the tone of voice you get when speaking directly with someone. There's also no facial expressions, body language, or other cues we pick up when talking face to face. Even when you do have all of the visual and audible signals and feedback mentioned, sometimes another person will still misunderstand your intentions or what you're trying to say — it's likely anyone who's been married will confirm this.
That's why I mentioned how I perceived the conversation. I hope you don't take it as criticism. I just wanted to add my own perception to the mix.
One of the most difficult things we do in life is attempt to communicate clearly our thoughts and feelings with other human beings. It can sometimes be a challenge face to face with people you know well, let alone strangers you communicate with thru brief bursts of writing online.
For what it's worth, you provide a lot of very enjoyable and interesting contributions which I enjoy reading. Others do so as well. It's all freely volunteered and I'm grateful for those contributions. I wish you and everyone all the best in the coming New Year!
dchew
Well-known member
I think this thread went South because of the way it evolved. Max first asked about whether System A would be better than System B; a fairly specific question that prompted good info and discussion. After a few pages in, the question changed to will these systems be better than what I'm using now? That's a different question, and as @Pieter 12 just pointed out, a very subjective one. I'm not by any means blaming Max for that; that is a normal, "Woah, what am I getting into here?" question. Dante might call it crossing the River Styx.
It's also a question that we are all very used to hearing. It used to come about every time Canon, Nikon or Sony introduced a new camera because MF tended to lag behind in technology. Now that all the main FF / MF cameras are based on the same sensor (sorry; exception to Leica), it happens a bit less. Regardless, it is easy to imagine this question applied to each format: is moving from M4/3 to APSC going to benefit me? APSC to FF? FF to 44x33? 44x33 to 54x40? 6x7 to 4x5? 4x5 to 8x10? We could set up a test in each case that would clearly prove yes. And then, set up another test with slightly different methods and/or criteria that would clearly prove no. Believe me, I have images in my portfolio that prove either outcome. Some of us get sensitive not because we feel the need to defend our choices, but because it just gets tiring like Groundhog Day.
Personally, I think all cameras are good enough to produce just about anything. We've all come back from a shoot at least once only to realize the iPhone grab shot was the best of the day.
Max, my recommendation is to just try any one of the combinations and see if the user experience helps you or hinders you. Don't get too caught up into image detail comparisons or other technicalities. In other words, I don't think sample images, tests or comparisons will help you in the least compared to how you get along with the equipment when in use.
Edit: If there is no way for you to test drive equipment, then if I were you, I would just go back to shooting with the equipment you have; you are obviously getting excellent results with whatever that is!
Dave
It's also a question that we are all very used to hearing. It used to come about every time Canon, Nikon or Sony introduced a new camera because MF tended to lag behind in technology. Now that all the main FF / MF cameras are based on the same sensor (sorry; exception to Leica), it happens a bit less. Regardless, it is easy to imagine this question applied to each format: is moving from M4/3 to APSC going to benefit me? APSC to FF? FF to 44x33? 44x33 to 54x40? 6x7 to 4x5? 4x5 to 8x10? We could set up a test in each case that would clearly prove yes. And then, set up another test with slightly different methods and/or criteria that would clearly prove no. Believe me, I have images in my portfolio that prove either outcome. Some of us get sensitive not because we feel the need to defend our choices, but because it just gets tiring like Groundhog Day.
Personally, I think all cameras are good enough to produce just about anything. We've all come back from a shoot at least once only to realize the iPhone grab shot was the best of the day.
Max, my recommendation is to just try any one of the combinations and see if the user experience helps you or hinders you. Don't get too caught up into image detail comparisons or other technicalities. In other words, I don't think sample images, tests or comparisons will help you in the least compared to how you get along with the equipment when in use.
Edit: If there is no way for you to test drive equipment, then if I were you, I would just go back to shooting with the equipment you have; you are obviously getting excellent results with whatever that is!
Dave
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"I wonder what is it exactly that you think you will gain from using different equipment? Are you looking to expand the possibilities of what you might be able to do?"
Yes, that's what I asked, what I can gain using different equipment that I mentioned earlier. I don't know, hence I asked about different options going DMF and if it will be a good investment in my case. Yes, I want to expand my possibilities. I mentioned product and portraits. I wander if DMF will give me that "wow"/appreciation of clients for very high details of MF for products, and different look for closeup portraits. So i mentioned 2 cameras, but actually it can by any DMF camera that can give me creative options.
What are you shooting with and where I can see your portfolio?
Nice architecture workI think this thread went South because of the way it evolved. Max first asked about whether System A would be better than System B; a fairly specific question that prompted good info and discussion. After a few pages in, the question changed to will these systems be better than what I'm using now? That's a different question, and as @Pieter 12 just pointed out, a very subjective one. I'm not by any means blaming Max for that; that is a normal, "Woah, what am I getting into here?" question. Dante might call it crossing the River Styx.
It's also a question that we are all very used to hearing. It used to come about every time Canon, Nikon or Sony introduced a new camera because MF tended to lag behind in technology. Now that all the main FF / MF cameras are based on the same sensor (sorry; exception to Leica), it happens a bit less. Regardless, it is easy to imagine this question applied to each format: is moving from M4/3 to APSC going to benefit me? APSC to FF? FF to 44x33? 44x33 to 54x40? 6x7 to 4x5? 4x5 to 8x10? We could set up a test in each case that would clearly prove yes. And then, set up another test with slightly different methods and/or criteria that would clearly prove no. Believe me, I have images in my portfolio that prove either outcome. Some of us get sensitive not because we feel the need to defend our choices, but because it just gets tiring like Groundhog Day.
Personally, I think all cameras are good enough to produce just about anything. We've all come back from a shoot at least once only to realize the iPhone grab shot was the best of the day.
Max, my recommendation is to just try any one of the combinations and see if the user experience helps you or hinders you. Don't get too caught up into image detail comparisons or other technicalities. In other words, I don't think sample images, tests or comparisons will help you in the least compared to how you get along with the equipment when in use.
Edit: If there is no way for you to test drive equipment, then if I were you, I would just go back to shooting with the equipment you have; you are obviously getting excellent results with whatever that is!
Dave
Yes, I will have to try them myself and see if I can get a benefit that outweights the price. The thing is it's not easy here where I live. Fuji easer, hass and phase one it's only to oder new from distributor from Europe, hence all my "blind" questions as I can't try or rent them but I will check if possible.