Digital medium format in 2024 – it's not dead!

[Pieter 12]

Yes, it's also where the product was conceived and designed and that the company, after all, is headquartered. There's probably some fastening screws they receive that come from say, Poland. Are they going to say Made in Poland?

With pretty much every photographic product of any complexity, there are a lot of ingredients, a lot of sausage making.


Steve Hendrix/CI

Automobiles are often made by subsidiaries around the world, and the country of final assembly is listed as the country where it was manufactured. Where it was conceived and designed is not necessarily required. Although many U.S. companies like to state "designed in the U.S." (even California for Apple!) although the product may be manufactured in China.

 

[buildbot]

Automobiles are often made by subsidiaries around the world, and the country of final assembly is listed as the country where it was manufactured. Where it was conceived and designed is not necessarily required. Although many U.S. companies like to state "designed in the U.S." (even California for Apple!) although the product may be manufactured in China.

My car actually stated what the % makeup of the major components it was - 48% Hungry, 52% Germany I think? Or the other way around.

And yeah, everything in a car is basically made by some subsidiary or other company. Headunits? Harmen (Samsung). ABS Module? Magna Carta. Engine Management Computer? Bosch. AMG engine? Technically, made by a subsidiary of Daimler, Mercedes-AMG, which is different than the core Mercedes-Benz company.

 

[dj may]

There is misinformation here about the designated country of manufacture. One of my previous careers was in international business. In the countries with which I am familiar, country of manufacture is designated if more than 50% of the VALUE occurs in that country. That means parts and labor. Where the product is assembled does not matter unless it contributes to a total value of greater than 50% in that country.

 

[Pieter 12]

There is misinformation here about the designated country of manufacture. One of my previous careers was in international business. In the countries with which I am familiar, country of manufacture is designated if more than 50% of the VALUE occurs in that country. That means parts and labor. Where the product is assembled does not matter unless it contributes to a total value of greater than 50% in that country.

I would think the electronics/sensor represent a big chunk of the parts value of a digital back, so does the Hasselblad back qualify as "handmade in Sweden?"

 

[TechTalk]

Yes.

 

[B L]

Yes, it's also where the product was conceived and designed and that the company, after all, is headquartered. There's probably some fastening screws they receive that come from say, Poland. Are they going to say Made in Poland?

With pretty much every photographic product of any complexity, there are a lot of ingredients, a lot of sausage making.


Steve Hendrix/CI

I think we should enjoy the pudding as long as it is not unhealthy- regardless who baked it!

 

[TechTalk]

Matters involving laws, rules, taxes, duties, tariffs, and international trade agreements are rarely simple — and the deeper you dig the less simple they become. Country of Origin Rules and Regulations are connected to all of those things mentioned. One of the many complexities is that different rules may be applied depending on the category of product being considered and the specific type of product within a category.

As one example of just how specific trade rules can be, let's look at cameras. Why were so many makes and models of "digital cameras" all programed to stop recording video at 29 minutes, 59 seconds? It appears to be because a trade agreement (see link for details) classified a camera which could record continuously at 30 minutes or longer as a "video camera" which could trigger a higher import duty on the camera.

This Country of Origin topic could generate pages of discussion on specific Country of Origin Rules and Regulations — but why should it? What would the purpose be? Isn't it already clear how cameras are produced from many different components from many different sources?

To bring this discussion, hopefully, to some kind of close; let's broadly explore some of the regulatory rules which may be applied to determine the Country of Origin for a product. One test may be based on the percentage of value added to a final product as mentioned earlier. Substantial transformation is another test which is also frequently applied to determine Country of Origin.

Some simple examples are given in this brief document on Substantial Transformation from the U.S. International Trade Commission (USITC). One example given is: "Sugar from country A, flour from country B, dairy products from country C, and nuts from country D are taken to country E and undergo manufacturing to result in cookies. (The inputs were substantially transformed into a product of country E, in that a new type of goods resulted from processing.)"

Substitute a sensor from Japan for sugar from country a; add electronic components from countries b, c, and d; and change cookies to cameras from country e in the example above and I think you get the general concept at work here.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Instead of diffusing the the discussion into boilerplate anything is made everywhere anyhow in today's world, etc. the point should be about why people discuss it in the first place or why in the first place a manufacturer stresses "made in X" as a product feature worth labelling prominently on the product.

That is, why is there so much focus on "handmade in Sweden" that they print it on the product?

Why not write: Produced in China / Japan, finally assembled and checked in Sweden? Why does one legally make sure to observe trade regulations as to be able to say Made in X?

This attempt of always diffusing the discussion into a common sense statement about how in today's globalized world products are produced via parts from everywhere misses the whole contentious point and the emotional element lying beneath such discussions relating to ownership (and jobs) of manufacturing companies moving to, as a generic example, say China and "Made in X" labelling used as a product marketing feature.

Apple has a nuanced approach, they just state Designed in California and there's barely hardware manufacturing left in the US for them – and everyone knows it, clearly. I am under no illusion that my MacbookPro has been made in a plant in California, for example.

In a more and more fragile world, the globalization of production over the last three decades might come to a tipping point of nationalistic reversal movements if, for example, there's a war in the coming years in Taiwan and so underlying topics about who can still manufacture something might become even more political.

I don't want to start a political discussion, but make the point that it is less about the "Made in X" in itself, but what the underlying drivers of using it as a marketing tool are and why people might react emotionally when discussing it.

So in a way, from a photo user perspective, of course it doesnt matter where the new products are made, but then the question is why Hasselblad is stressing the Made in Sweden so much.

I am curious to hear why people think they do it.

 

[Pieter 12]

Substitute a sensor from Japan for sugar from country a; add electronic components from countries b, c, and d; and change cookies to cameras from country e in the example above and I think you get the general concept at work here.

But in the case of a camera, the sensor and electronics are doing the heavy lifting, and a camera is not as far removed from those components as a cookie from flour, etc. Putting such components in a case with software does not significantly transform them, just incorporates them.

Back in the 1970's, U.S. automakers started seeing competition from Japanese pick-up truck manufacturers and got congress to pass a bill charging a hefty tariff on imported trucks. So Datsun (and I assume the others) imported the trucks without the beds (I guess they could no longer be considered "trucks" as such) and assembled them at the port of entry to avoid the tax. Where there's a will to find a loophole, there's a way.

 

[TechTalk]

I think we should enjoy the pudding as long as it is not unhealthy- regardless who baked it!

Sorry, no such luck — at least not in any online forum. But I agree with your sentiment wholeheartedly!

 

[P. Chong]

Indeed. In the watchmaking industry, “Swiss Made” has specific rules by the Swiss government. If the movement is cased in Switzerland, then 60% of the cost is incurred in Switzerland. And this is easily met, because complications, modifications and the last stage of final assembly and testing are done in Switzerland. For a very simple watch, this could take say 10 hours of skilled Swiss work, but the watch components are made in Malaysia, China and Vietnam, the ebauche (base movement…sort of like the sensor being made by Sony), is made and assembled in China. Even if the work outside of Switzerland is say 50 hours, due the differential labour costs, the Swiss portion contributes to more than 60% and the watch qualifies as “Swiss Made”.

Same for “Made in Japan”. And “Made in Germany” is not controlled by any regulatory body. Curiously started by the British to mark foreign goods as inferior to those made in the UK. Though that backfired.

 

[Paul Spinnler]

Indeed. In the watchmaking industry, “Swiss Made” has specific rules by the Swiss government. If the movement is cased in Switzerland, then 60% of the cost is incurred in Switzerland. And this is easily met, because complications, modifications and the last stage of final assembly and testing are done in Switzerland. For a very simple watch, this could take say 10 hours of skilled Swiss work, but the watch components are made in Malaysia, China and Vietnam, the ebauche (base movement…sort of like the sensor being made by Sony), is made and assembled in China. Even if the work outside of Switzerland is say 50 hours, due the differential labour costs, the Swiss portion contributes to more than 60% and the watch qualifies as “Swiss Made”.

Same for “Made in Japan”. And “Made in Germany” is not controlled by any regulatory body. Curiously started by the British to mark foreign goods as inferior to those made in the UK. Though that backfired.

Yes, precisely, and one might contend that if 50 hours are outside of Switzerland and 10 inside, it is misleading to say Made in Switzerland; the reason why there's a focus on "Made in Switzerland" though, is that it carries a strong marketing and economic value. People attribute certain product qualities to a watch product if it has the "Made in Switzerland" label on it, including quality and longevity aspects and to an extent also aspects of why it is ok that the product is so highly priced (because one thinks some insanely well trained watch specialist in a high priced country like Switzerland is spending a lot of time in the creation of the product, for example).

But if the the watch company increased profitability by outsourcing part of the "human MANUfacturing" to Vietnam and it is not labelled in any way due to price of labour differential and regulations allowing one to do that, one might content that it is misleading marketing to increase profits.

It is a contentious topic not because of people disputing that something is 100% made somewhere, but due to all the underlying assumptions that go with such a label, helping to drive sales, and the economic effect it can have on the product's success in the marketplace and because it may hide economic facts such as a majority of human labour going into a product going into that product in a low wage country with different set of labour rules, etc.

"Made in Switzerland" is a huge driver of whether one will accept a timepiece as high quality and fairly priced, despite a high price tag, for example. The watch industry is an extreme example as for watches this label makes a huge difference regarding perceived quality and acceptance of high price.

With regard to handmade in Sweden – I have a certain perception of the product when I read that – curious what others think the marketing reason is and what the messaging implies. I have my view of why its done, but curious to hear why others think it is done.

 

[lookbook]

.. "made in" is unjustifiably successful.

my last alps-swiss was a second-hand xy.
its fine drive was defective and i wanted to have it repaired in switzerland.

the project was cancelled because alpa was unable to repair the camera,
because there were no spare parts and they would have to find a manufacturer who could make these fine gears !!??

that was my final farewell to Alpa ...

 

[Paul Spinnler]

.. "made in" is unjustifiably successful.

my last alps-swiss was a second-hand xy.
its fine drive was defective and i wanted to have it repaired in switzerland.

the project was cancelled because alpa was unable to repair the camera,
because there were no spare parts and they would have to find a manufacturer who could make these fine gears !!??

that was my final farewell to Alpa ...

The product has been discontinued for 7 years (actually more than that, that was a one off final run; may be 10 even) and Alpa has worked with Seitz to manufacture it in small runs – there's a reasonable expectation that one can get replacement parts, but then again after many years of a limited edition product which has been DISCONTINUED you can't be super mad if there are no more parts.

Seitz most likely could manufacture parts, but given it has been discontinued for quite a while it is not economical to start a huge CNC machine to replace single custom made drive element.

The first XY was produced almost 20 years a go – its a collector's item. And a tech cam with unique features, still.

Why didn't you return the XY if it was 2nd hand?

Its a shame though, as the XY is a fantastic piece of tech cam hardware - and history.

 

[TechTalk]

But in the case of a camera, the sensor and electronics are doing the heavy lifting, and a camera is not as far removed from those components as a cookie from flour, etc. Putting such components in a case with software does not significantly transform them, just incorporates them.

In the case of a camera; the sensor and electronics are incapable of doing any lifting whatsoever until they are combined with the necessary structural, mechanical, software, and firmware components and then tested, calibrated, and assembled to create a device which is capable of mounting a lens and capturing photographs. If you don't find that to be a significant transformation of those individual components, you're entitled to that viewpoint.

This, in my view, is not a camera because you cannot capture an image by picking up a handful of separate parts no matter where they may have originated. This is a camera as is this. You can refer to the process of how they became cameras as assembly, production, manufacturing, putting components in a case, or ballroom dancing — the end result and final product is still the same regardless. The end result of that process is a useful product for capturing images and expressing yourself creatively.

You can enjoy a fika later, accompanied by a delightful cookie, while browsing thru your images.

 

[Steve Hendrix]

In my opinion, what the standards are for numerous other industries really makes no difference. All that matters is that Hasselblad feels that the words Made In Sweden form the essential communication for what they feel is important. And what anyone else does or what anyone else thinks is irrelevant. Who knows if they even state that for the purpose of communicating that as an advantage? Surely they do, but perhaps it is also as much a badge of honor, or a statement of pride for those responsible for the camera (and many more before it) in the first place.

Regardless of any other company or industry protocols, I think it makes complete sense for them to state Made In Sweden. Not only was it designed in Sweden, not only is the headquarters of the company in Sweden, but the history of the company is also based in Sweden, back many decades. They don't say "Assembled in Sweden", they say Made In Sweden, and to my way of thinking, for all practical purposes, it is Made In Sweden, and everything from the beginnings of the company leads back from the product itself to Sweden as well. If there was no Hasselblad 1600F in Sweden, there would not be an X2D in Sweden. It is Sweden, it is a heritage, it is an attempt to be true to at least some historic and foundational product principles. There's much more to it than just well, where are the components from and where is it assembled. It says Made, not assembled, not constructed from, but Made, and I'm totally ok with that.

Anyway, fun to talk about? I guess, but in these discussions, there's always the hint from some that the company is somehow being deceptive or inauthentic in their branding Made In Sweden, and if they are, to me, it's only in one's own subjective and restrictive definition of the term.


Steve Hendrix/CI

 

[TechTalk]

Thanks for sharing your point of view Steve. Being true to some historic and foundational product principles includes their Scandinavian design heritage which is clearly communicated both thru the form and function of products as well as their Made in Sweden marking.

 

[corvus]

In the case of a camera; the sensor and electronics are incapable of doing any lifting whatsoever until they are combined with the necessary structural, mechanical, software, and firmware components and then tested, calibrated, and assembled to create a device which is capable of mounting a lens and capturing photographs. If you don't find that to be a significant transformation of those individual components, you're entitled to that viewpoint.

This, in my view, is not a camera because you cannot capture an image by picking up a handful of separate parts no matter where they may have originated. This is a camera as is this. You can refer to the process of how they became cameras as assembly, production, manufacturing, putting components in a case, or ballroom dancing — the end result and final product is still the same regardless. The end result of that process is a useful product for capturing images and expressing yourself creatively.

fika later, accompanied by a delightful cookie, while browsing thru your images.

“The whole is greater than the sum of the parts.” Aristoteles

Our modern civilization is unthinkable without the philosophy of antiquity.

 

[anwarp]

Curiously started by the British to mark foreign goods as inferior to those made in the UK.

This trend of marking even potatoes as British seems to have made a comeback …

 

[lookbook]

The product has been discontinued for 7 years (actually more than that, that was a one off final run; may be 10 even) and Alpa has worked with Seitz to manufacture it in small runs – there's a reasonable expectation that one can get replacement parts, but then again after many years of a limited edition product which has been DISCONTINUED you can't be super mad if there are no more parts.

Seitz most likely could manufacture parts, but given it has been discontinued for quite a while it is not economical to start a huge CNC machine to replace single custom made drive element.

The first XY was produced almost 20 years a go – its a collector's item. And a tech cam with unique features, still.

Why didn't you return the XY if it was 2nd hand?

Its a shame though, as the XY is a fantastic piece of tech cam hardware - and history.

... that's interesting Paul!
Is Alpa not a manufacturer, but an engineering company without its own production and with or without final assembly?

If the XY does not fall from the tripod onto the floor, there are not many parts that could malfunction in normal operation.
The fine drive, however, certainly comes first!

But if you, as a developer, buy different fine adjustment gears for every new camera, that's not well thought out, is it?
Of course I tried to return the camera with a lot of energy!

The sale via EBAY, with a precise description of the fault, was problem-free.

Uwe