S2 in the "Real World"

[Jack]

Hi Roger:

No worries, I misread your original post and thought the images you posted were from the S2. Now it's clear they were shots OF the event using another camera.

I'm not clear which two posts you want me to delete, but can pretty easily merge the images into your first post if that would help make things more clear. Or, if you just want that image deleted, I can do that. if you still feel the need to have a post removed, please tell me which one by number so I get the correct one.

Cheers,

 

[Paratom]

Same camera and lenses as used by D. Farkas. No sample variation.

Take the time to carefully read what I wrote.

I DID NOT say the S2 AF was bad. I said those moving from 35mm DSLR should be aware this is MF and the all that implies, and those that think this is a MF camera that will focus considerably better than other MF cameras may be disappointed.

As to 35mm AF accuracy ... you may have issues with it ... I do not.

-Marc

IMO only a very fast AF is really usefull. (Thats why I leave the one of my Hy6 off most of the time for example and no, I do not believe that the Hy6 focuses as fast as the S2)

I think it is somewhat clear, that even if the S2 body looks a lot like a 35mm DSLR that it is still more a MF-camera than a 35mm DSLR.
Weight and size of the lenses, just one central AF point, etc etc.
Personally I would not have expected that AF speed can come any close to a Nikon d3.
When I had saw the S2 at a Leica booth some weeks ago another guy had the S2 in the hand and commented about a pretty slow AF.
The Leica guy said "you have to remember its a MF camera for creative photography" (by the way I thought it was not very clever to say so)
And has anybody really expected that Leica got their supplier to invent a new sensor which shows better noise performance than all other CCDs while having smaller pixels?

Still I believe that specially with its size, probably very good lenses and weather sealing the S2 will allow to be used in some situations/environment where you would not bring other MF cameras.

 

[Dale Allyn]

I wonder if people are wrestling with the shortcomings of communication via static text without the advantage of vocal tone and facial expressions, etc., and possible misunderstanding of attached materials. I'm one to have extremely narrow tolerance vis-a-vis web forum discussion tone, but I have not observed harshness in this thread (excepting perhaps, a few now-deleted posts earlier in the thread), and I enjoyed seeing Roger's images. His explanation of the images is sufficient for me.

 

[Jack]

please delete 10,12,32,34 and this one..basically all of my posts in this thread.

A bit confused by the request, but done

 

[fotografz]

IMO only a very fast AF is really usefull. (Thats why I leave the one of my Hy6 off most of the time for example and no, I do not believe that the Hy6 focuses as fast as the S2)

I think it is somewhat clear, that even if the S2 body looks a lot like a 35mm DSLR that it is still more a MF-camera than a 35mm DSLR.
Weight and size of the lenses, just one central AF point, etc etc.
Personally I would not have expected that AF speed can come any close to a Nikon d3.
When I had saw the S2 at a Leica booth some weeks ago another guy had the S2 in the hand and commented about a pretty slow AF.
The Leica guy said "you have to remember its a MF camera for creative photography" (by the way I thought it was not very clever to say so)
And has anybody really expected that Leica got their supplier to invent a new sensor which shows better noise performance than all other CCDs while having smaller pixels?

Still I believe that specially with its size, probably very good lenses and weather sealing the S2 will allow to be used in some situations/environment where you would not bring other MF cameras.

That I would agree with.

I went into this knowing exactly the limits I could live with ... there were NO expectations of Canon or Nikon Pro series AF performance ... the single point AF provides a clue before even getting the camera in hand. There certainly wasn't an expectation of high ISO like most any 35mm DSLR.

The caution was provided for those with high end 35mm DSLRs to temper their expectations ... the only surprise I experienced was thinking it would significantly improve on existing MFD AF ... which IMO it does not. I've used both Mamiya and Hassey H long enough now to evaluate that reasonably well.

Again, the AF is not horrible or defective in any way ... and it may well set new standards for accuracy (which would remain to be seen as compared to Phase One/Mamiya and Hassey's newest offerings both claiming improved AF).

-Marc

 

[markowich]

IMO only a very fast AF is really usefull. (Thats why I leave the one of my Hy6 off most of the time for example and no, I do not believe that the Hy6 focuses as fast as the S2)

I think it is somewhat clear, that even if the S2 body looks a lot like a 35mm DSLR that it is still more a MF-camera than a 35mm DSLR.
Weight and size of the lenses, just one central AF point, etc etc.
Personally I would not have expected that AF speed can come any close to a Nikon d3.
When I had saw the S2 at a Leica booth some weeks ago another guy had the S2 in the hand and commented about a pretty slow AF.
The Leica guy said "you have to remember its a MF camera for creative photography" (by the way I thought it was not very clever to say so)
And has anybody really expected that Leica got their supplier to invent a new sensor which shows better noise performance than all other CCDs while having smaller pixels?

Still I believe that specially with its size, probably very good lenses and weather sealing the S2 will allow to be used in some situations/environment where you would not bring other MF cameras.

you are completely right. i also fell into the high expectation trap, although it was completely unreasonable.
peter

 

[georgl]

"How do you know it focuses "definitely better than any other MF system based on just this ... did you have all the other MF cameras right there to test in the same light on the same subject? Just curious."

After I handled the S2, I quickly went to the Hasselblad-booth and Sinar (Hy6) to compare the "feeling" while I had the S2 well in mind - I didn't like the sound of the Summarit 70-AF but under these comparable light situations the AF definitely felt better than the others. It wasn't "pumping" or "hunting" for focus, activate it, one fast (annoying) "sssrrttt" and done.


"And has anybody really expected that Leica got their supplier to invent a new sensor which shows better noise performance than all other CCDs while having smaller pixels?"

It uses microlenses, the other current-sensor-offerings do not - out of curiosity, how far (ISO/noise-wise) would you go with a P40+/P65+ in comparison to a D3X/1dsMkIII (not for web-applications but critical print work from manually processed RAW-files). Are there final firmware DNGs out for 640/1250ASA? Haven't seen them yet!?

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Just a FRIENDLY reminder on these Leica S2 forums as of late that folks need to beware of the GetDPI Mantra. Let's keep it friendly folks. I'm not particular happy with what I have been seeing as of late. I know some members are not being involved on purpose and that is not the GetDPI way.

"A place to exchange ideas, techniques, experiences AND images,
where the discussions are fun, respectful and geared toward the goal of
helping each other improve all aspects of our photography."

 

[fotografz]

A few additional observations:

Of the 170 shots I did, none exhibited any CA or purple fringing ... this included interior shots with specular hot spots from interior lights ... I also experience zero flare even in the brightest conditions with the sun in the frame.

While the AF occasionally slowed me down or I missed the exact timing I wanted, when it did lock, it was dead on the money as far as accuracy ... in other words it focused on what I wanted, not something near it or behind it.

As far as "clinical" look verses "mojo" ... I'm not sure what that means when applied to high resolution MFD ... since I've personally never seen any MFD shot that looks like a M9 shot done with a M 75/1.4 or DMR shot using a 35/1.4 or 80/1.4 ... except maybe an adapted Zeiss 110/2 shot up close. The caveat to that is that I've not used the Mamiya 150/2.8D or studied shots from it.

I did do some shots at ISO 1250 which exhibited noise ... but we must remember that these files are huge and printed at certain smaller sizes will look fine due to compressing the noise down smaller compared to 12 meg files for example. I have some similar shots back home and will print at 8" X 10" to see how correct this really is. I can say that at 1250 there was no banding or streaks even when I lifted the file a stop or so. However, I still believe it was an oversight to not offer ISOs like 800 and 1000 on this camera. Maybe a major oversight.

Lastly, the resolution is (IMO) over-all the equal to my H3D-11/39 when all things are taken into consideration. (which was Leica's intention if I recall correctly). Detail of enlarged portions is VERY good. There is no apparent color transfer or smearing of adjacent hues etc. Crisp separation.

-Marc

 

[paulmoore]

marc, I think Leica's intention was that it would size up favorably to the all backs..I think that it is a given that the files of 31mp and above are going to be good.. it is the handling and process of the camera that makes it stand out to me..that includes the optics.. It is hard to compare this camera with anything else as it does not fit in a box yet occupied by any other camera system. Thanks for taking the time and exposure in posting your comments and pics.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Thanks Marc and i think what some are saying and obviously not enough images on this thing yet in varies conditions but just in general maybe more about smoothness of file that is not necessarily there in these tough lighting shots which are hard to see that level of look to begin with if you know what I mean. It's a good start but as we see this system progress and raw converters that may work better or worse with the files than it is hard to tell. L3 is beta and we don't know how the final will look either. Jack and I talked about this on the phone about when we get to test it is a general hold onto the raws until all the software catches up and than go back and reprocess the files and see if changes are made and what converters maybe best for the S2 files in the end. The one major problem here on the forum is simple this we are looking at a premature system that has no definitive answers yet. Here is when we need to be careful on evaluation because it does not have a history to it and making snap judgements on only a select few of files is first not a good way to evaluate it or make final it's awesome or it sucks decisions yet and this is a reminder to the members here that we have to be careful about that.

Patience is the key I think. Look at any of the other backs out there and the time it takes to understand them and the biggy here to get the best out of them. This is key IMHO so we need to look think and compare in a sensible way. It's not the best and it is not the worst out there they are both unknowns and until the system is truly in place how do we really know. Right now with your posts here you added some more clues to the big puzzle in the sky but more pieces need to be added to that. Heck just on the AF alone your not going to move big fat elements around that fast to begin with and that is true for all MF systems. This is single pint just like Phase but keeping up with a 8fps second 35mm is just not reality with MF. I agree 35mm folks should know this going in. Not that it is not good but more on par with others in this MF field. Better or worse we all find out but high expectations should be in check with any new system. This is what I am trying to get across to the members here is be patient be realistic and be honest with yourself and others here as well. End of the day this is just a camera but you neighbor is your neighbor and stop pissing on his garden. Sorry but I see a some real struggles here lately and it needs to come to a halt. Sorry to interject this but this is GetDPI folks and you know what we are about. Lets keep it on the level we are accustomed too. Thanks sorry to put that in there but I think it is needed.

 

[Shelby Lewis]

Well said Marc and Guy... and let me publicly say sorry if I "pissed on anyone's garden".

I mean that.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

LOL your fine and we certainly have opinions and that is awesome as we should. No one wants real fights between members and insults that is our only concern. Disagreeing is healthy, I'm married and know that fact all to well.:ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:

 

[fotografz]

Thanks Marc and i think what some are saying and obviously not enough images on this thing yet in varies conditions but just in general maybe more about smoothness of file that is not necessarily there in these tough lighting shots which are hard to see that level of look to begin with if you know what I mean. It's a good start but as we see this system progress and raw converters that may work better or worse with the files than it is hard to tell. L3 is beta and we don't know how the final will look either. Jack and I talked about this on the phone about when we get to test it is a general hold onto the raws until all the software catches up and than go back and reprocess the files and see if changes are made and what converters maybe best for the S2 files in the end. The one major problem here on the forum is simple this we are looking at a premature system that has no definitive answers yet. Here is when we need to be careful on evaluation because it does not have a history to it and making snap judgements on only a select few of files is first not a good way to evaluate it or make final it's awesome or it sucks decisions yet and this is a reminder to the members here that we have to be careful about that.

Patience is the key I think. Look at any of the other backs out there and the time it takes to understand them and the biggy here to get the best out of them. This is key IMHO so we need to look think and compare in a sensible way. It's not the best and it is not the worst out there they are both unknowns and until the system is truly in place how do we really know. Right now with your posts here you added some more clues to the big puzzle in the sky but more pieces need to be added to that. Heck just on the AF alone your not going to move big fat elements around that fast to begin with and that is true for all MF systems. This is single pint just like Phase but keeping up with a 8fps second 35mm is just not reality with MF. I agree 35mm folks should know this going in. Not that it is not good but more on par with others in this MF field. Better or worse we all find out but high expectations should be in check with any new system. This is what I am trying to get across to the members here is be patient be realistic and be honest with yourself and others here as well. End of the day this is just a camera but you neighbor is your neighbor and stop pissing on his garden. Sorry but I see a some real struggles here lately and it needs to come to a halt. Sorry to interject this but this is GetDPI folks and you know what we are about. Lets keep it on the level we are accustomed too. Thanks sorry to put that in there but I think it is needed.

Yep, just a few more pieces of the puzzle.

We can make our observations ... but nothing is B&W. No matter how much people want to polarize the comments based on pre-conceived expectations, most observations are shades of grey until more and more info is added and clarifies the total picture.

-Marc

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Totally agree Marc. Take it one image at a time for now, there is a lot of money at stake either way and people need to be sure of those buy decisions. I don't care one way or the other just don't want people making bad mistakes based on bad info.

 

[cmb_]

... but nothing is B&W. . . . shades of grey

Which reminds me - did you try try processing any of the S2 images in B&W? I know this was a concern of yours with the M9 so it would be interesting to see how the S2 files look in B&W and if it requires any special workflow.

 

[Jack]

Yep, just a few more pieces of the puzzle.

We can make our observations ... but nothing is B&W. No matter how much people want to polarize the comments based on pre-conceived expectations, most observations are shades of grey until more and more info is added and clarifies the total picture.

-Marc

Well said!
:clap:

 

[tjv]

Thanks for taking the time to post, Marc.
I'm sad because the S2 seems more and more like the right camera for me and $$$ is tight...

 

[Guy Mancuso]

General feeling right now it seems for many of us.

 

[ptomsu]

Thanks for taking the time to post, Marc.
I'm sad because the S2 seems more and more like the right camera for me and $$$ is tight...

Same for me, this system I did not consider 6 months ago, but now I am getting stuck with it the more I read and see about this.

But agree $$$$ is very high for this amount of MP. So IQ has to be outstanding besides all the other very positive features like form factor, robustness etc. etc.